AE MonthlyNew Letter
Letters to the Editor
RICHLER April 09, 2003
Following the interesting discussion on the
copyrights of book descriptions, I should like to pose another question on copyrights.
Suppose A owns a rare book or manuscript and gives a photocopy to a friend or scholar, perhaps with permission to publish, perhaps without.
A then sells the MS to B. Again, B may or may not be aware that the scholar has a copy.
The scholar decides to publish the text or to give the photocopies to another party.
Does B (the new owner) retain any copyright over the photocopies? Is the scholar free to publish or to give or sell the photocopies to another party or is he obligated to ask the new owner (B) permission to do so?
What if the manuscript is sold to an anonymous
The same question is valid when a library holds microfilm copies of manuscripts from another collection which is later sold.
gsaretzk April 09, 2003
IMHO, a technical description (e.g. octavo, blue cloth, gravure reproductions, etc.) is rather different from a summary of the book's
intellectual content and biographical information about the author written by the bookseller. The former is a statement of fact like "the auto has four wheels." The latter is a creative production and should be protected by copyright but infringement is impractical to enforce unless one
bookseller takes another's book descriptions en masse.
Saretzky Online: Photo Books
w.barrow April 09, 2003
It would seem to me that any written book
description that is substantial and creative enough becomes the intellectual property of its author and can only be transferred with that author's permission. Should the buyer in particular or the trade in general benefit from being able to pass along these descriptions to succeeding generations
of owners, then either the descriptions need to be purchased (or clearly included in the sale of the books), or the trade needs to designate some minimal level of description to suffice for the purposes of generating a chain of title, which would be passed along with ownership of the book. I suppose one could argue that any description that was originally published may be copied and included with the book, solely as background information, but not re-published for marketing purposes except within the rules of Fair Use. And, since a percentage of
any description may be useful to the original dealer/author if they subsequently obtain another copy, it makes sense for them to retain the ability to re-use their own prose.
WILLIAM C. BARROW
Special Collections Librarian
Cleveland State University Library
2121 Euclid Avenue
Cleveland, OH 44115
(216) 687-6998 (office)
(216) 687-2449 (Special Collections)
(216) 687-9328 (fax)
http://web.ulib.csuohio.edu/SpecColl/ (Special Collections)
Dillonbook April 09, 2003
Whether collectors have the right, with attribution, to re-use these book descriptions when they in turn decide to sell their collections.
Of course they do not. In 1989, for example, Sotheby's sold The Collection of The Garden Ltd. The collection included two Alexander Pope manuscripts acquired from the Houghton sale, Christie's 1980.
manuscript-cataloguer turned in his work in 1989, I discovered that he had simply copied the Pope descriptions verbatim from
the Houghton catalogue -- reasoning, as I recall, that he had written them himself while working for Christie's nine years before. I told him, and Sotheby's general counsel told him, that we couldn't possibly print them like that.
The descriptions belonged to Christie's and Christie's alone. Not the seller, not the cataloguer, not the buyer, not successive buyers.
My own modest contributions to the genre, eg
can entail days of research, painstaking
correspondence, travel, shmoozing,
tenacity, enthusiasm, the occasional insight, and
sometimes even a fortunate
turn of phrase. My descriptions are not "work for
hire", nor do they become
"work for hire" retroactively when the underlying
goods are sold. (If that
were the case, then PepsiCo could buy a Coke and
then start using Coke's
My descriptions are my property. In most cases I
would be amazed if anyone
thought them worth reprinting; but nevertheless they
are my property. One
important collector asked me years ago whether he
might buy my descriptions
as he buys my books, and of course I told him yes;
yet there are other buyers
and other circumstances where I would say no.
wklimon April 09, 2003
Suppose A owns a rare book or manuscript and gives a photocopy to a friend or scholar, perhaps with permission to publish, perhaps without. A then sells the MS to B. Again, B may or may not be aware that the scholar has a copy.
The scholar decides to publish the text or to give the photocopies to another party. Does B (the new owner) retain any copyright over the photocopies? Is the scholar free to publish or to give or sell the photocopies to another party or is he obligated to ask the new owner (B) permission to do so?
What if the manuscript is sold to an anonymous purchaser?
The same question is valid when a library holds microfilm copies of manuscripts from another collection which is later sold.
The answers to your questions depend on the
copyright of the underlying works. If the rare book you hypothesize was published before 1923, or if the author of the unpublished MS died before 1933, then in either case the work is in the public domain and anyone is permitted under the copyright law to make copies.
If the book or MS was published or created after those dates, then the question is a bit more complicated and more information would be need to answer it.
William M. Klimon
drhbooks April 09, 2003
Christopher G. Mullin, Dorothy Sloan, and Frank Dobie are to be complemented on their "OPEN SOURCE" policy regarding book descriptions. However, I have to point out that there is more than one way to run a railroad and I would be quite surprised to discover that ALL of Frank Dobie's bibliographical endeavors bear the same
> notice on the copyright page.....
> Trying to force everyone into the same business
> is never easy, and rarely results in good will
> As others have pointed out advertising text in the
> world outside antiquarian/used bookselling (even in
> NEW bookselling!) is protected by copyright law.
> There is probably a reason for this. Since I'm not
> lawyer, an MBA, or an ethicist I'll just assume a
> reason and go with the majority of the world on this
> instead of trying to reinvent the wheel and come up
> with even MORE reasons why bookselling is different.
> I have had dealers ask politely if they could use my description after
> purchasing a cataloged book from me,
> and I have always granted permission and felt
> flattered that they appreciated my work. Granting a blanket permission to all including database owners is less appealing.
drscheiner April 09, 2003
Knowledge can not be copyrighted, just one's presentation of it. If after years of research I discover a particular volume to be the first illustrated American edition of a title, and state such in my printed catalog, any one has the right to repeat that information. Courtesy would dictate that
the "discoverer" be credited, as would prudence if you don't want to be personally liable if the "fact" should subsequently be proven to be false.
wklimon April 09, 2003
What Mr. McKinney has proposed, although he doesn't address the legal issues at all, is a kind of standard license under which dealers would grant a perpetual, though limited, right to use their copyrighted material (catalog descriptions) to the purchasers (and subsequent purchasers) of the dealers' books.
There is nothing legally objectionable about that proposal (although they will most certainly want to raise their prices to reflect the grant of the license). But it would require a large amount of voluntary compliance: in each transaction, each dealer would have to agree to such a license. A dealer could agree in one deal one day, and decline in another the next. And, recall, we dealing with the very idiosyncratic world of book dealers. Short of legislation, there is probably no way to get the critical mass of compliance that would be required to make the whole project work.
William M. Klimon
JBERARD April 09, 2003
Those book descriptions are published work (most are published by the bookseller in catalogs or on websites) and as such
have all the regular protections of copyright.
McKinney acknowledges that the author's carefully worded descriptions add to the value of the book. That person's hard-won knowledge and experience that make the description valuable. It is reasonable that
they expect to profit from this.
To further my point, one should also realize that re-use of a description might affect the author's credibility. The book may have changed condition since last sold, or facts may have become available that would change the description. Despite the buyer's theoretical promise, the description might also be used for another copy of the work.
withheld April 03, 2003
I represent an auction company that has done billions in auction business. If your group could give us leads through your resources we would give back 10% of the gross commissions charged. If you have interest please contact me for further exchange. Thank you,
The Americana Exchange does not accept commissions. We provide objective information about books and accepting commissions could impact objectivity. However, when you are conducting book auctions we will gladly post information and listings in the field of printed Americana for free as this information will be of interest to our members. Americana Exchange
Peter April 03, 2003
Frankly, I found last month's article on ABE to be an appalling puff piece. Corporate propaganda at its worst, disguised as objective journalism. Many of ABE's more professional dealers have been dropping out of their programs. You might have asked them how they added 200-300 new dealers every month and ended up with about the same number of dealers over time.... I'm very displeased with their new management team and their style. They're not book people, they're money people. Corporate punks, making a buck off me because they can, because they have no real competition since Amazon blitzed Bibliofind.
Peter Dast, professional bookseller.
Anthony April 03, 2003
Who owns a books description? You people are part of the modern disaster. You don't own the English language or any other language. Let me know who your opponents are, and I will donate all my spare cash to fight you. You money grubbing jerks!
abready April 02, 2003
Letter to the Editor:
Interesting take on what to do about dealer and auction catalog descriptions and one's ability to make use of them later. To put it briefly, the first matter is one of copyright: if the dealer has copyrighted his or her catalog, then direct theft of text is against the rules. But only a few do this. For myself, and for others with whom I have often talked over the past several decades, the general rule is that bibliographical information is for everyone to appropriate: the more accurate, the better. Regarding editorial commentary, we all take some pride in our abilities to ferret out information that somebody else didn't. If someone then appropriates that info for their own entry, this is deemed as recognition of our own talents. It is not a slight, but still an (sadly, often uncited) acknowledgement of the work of another. After all, the information actually came from other sources to begin with (books, newspapers, etc.) which we did not write ourselves. Cataloguing is an art form (albeit a miniscule one), and just about every cataloguer I know takes some pride in what they produce. The catalog gets printed and mailed out and your name (or the firm's name) is attached, so you are judged on your product. I will often mention within an entry a recognition by name of the effort by another that enabled me to write a more complete (or witty) catalog description. I have had my name mentioned by others. The general idea is professional courtesy: we all like to be stroked on occasion. We crib and adopt from all sorts of sources if we think that it will help better sell the product. The information is out there; it is just a matter of finding it. A point to consider: you have compiled a vast database, with extensive bibliographical citations. Who or what gives you the right to list those citations? Did you get written permission from Wright Howes or his heirs to use his entries (which are actually protected by copyright? Do you do it on the premise that they serve as commonly understood fixed points for further discussion and investigation? So it is for those of us in the trade (or at least most of us). What I write is not meant to be selfishly retained; it is to disseminate information. Any goof who thinks that what he or she writes is deathless and his or her own property alone has much more ego than sense. They have gathered their information from the effort of others; what makes them think that others aren't allowed to do what they themselves have done? Granted, the internet sloths who blithely reprint entire catalog entries by another are a pimple on the butt of the profession. They are cheating, both their customers and themselves (since they obviously have not discovered the fun of research). But their customers will quickly learn that purchases are being made from somebody who doesn't know what they are cribbing about, and thus the lazy will either clean up their act or disappear from the field in time. Every profession has those who attempt to make fast bucks on the backs of those who came before, but history also tells us that those who operate in this fashion quickly move on to some other field, because the only way to succeed in any field is to do the homework and know the territory. In short, the operating rules are be courteous, acknowledge the work of others when appropriate, and consider what you have written to be part of the vastness of information. It must be stressed that we are not the ones who actually wrote what we are selling; we make our livings on the writings of others. We don't really contribute; what we do is elucidate. Anybody who confuses the two doesn't deserve the time of day for their complaints about intellectual theft. We provide information much as the dictionary compiler or the newspaper reporter. It is an honor to have one's writings considered significant enough to be snatched and repeated.
It is the commentary and annotations that make writing catalog entries any fun whatsoever. To simply copy somebody else's work is the product of someone who doesn't really enjoy what they are doing, just trying to make a buck or two. I consider it a challenge to condense information obtained from several others into newly phrased and less than purple prose that informs and illuminates and entertains at the same time. If my name is on the catalog, then I better feel good about what I have written. If others don't have as high a standard, well, too sad for them. They are missing out on the fun. All that said and done, the theft of ideas are a different matter entirely. In his latest book, Nicholas Basbanes quotes a book dealer at length regarding a concept (which will remain unmentioned because the particulars are unimportant). The lengthy quote is one that I made directly to the credited dealer, and was entirely of my own conception. When I read the passage I stood up and snorted, stomped around the room for several seconds, and then sat back down and had one of the best laughs I've had for quite a while. If someone takes your ideas for their own, what greater compliment can you receive? You've come up with something that someone else actually agreed with. Remember, charity and good humor will always triumph.
Yours in correctness,
Baltimore Book Auctions
Editor's Note: AE licenses Howes Usiana from the Newberry Library.
faroid April 01, 2003
I was at the Boston Antiquarian show where I received your card with the two week offer, I have one of the best Golf Libraries in the world, and was a bit disappointed to see not to many offerings on golf books, especially where you are from San Francisco where Pacific Book Auctions are and I know that they have had around five or six Golf Sales since 1996 and this would be enough to get me really enthused also with along over 300 of my golf collector society members and also my British golf collector friends......also if you could have the database for the major golf auctions every year, Sotheby's, Christies, Bonham's, Phillips, that really have many golf books in them this would be one Killer database......you should really look into it.....you would get many members.....Jim Espinola
kfermoyle April 01, 2003
Bruce McKinney's article advocates plagiarism, pure & simple - something
generallly considered by only reprehensible but illegal!
As a professional writer, editor & journalist for more than 50 years, my writing is a marketable product and is protected by copyright. It can only
be used by others with my permission, which usually involves a payment for
such usage. A professional bookseller who spends time researching &
writing a book description is entitled to the same protection. Henceforth,
any book descriptions I write will carry a specific copyright notice.
Anyone who uses such a description will be liable for penalties under copyright law.
JeromeP8 April 01, 2003
Bookseller descriptions are covered by law. Descriptive material is owned
and protected. What you are suggesting with the 'sale' of the description
passing with the sale of the book is wrong!
diivinedbl February 01, 2003
You were kind enough to email me when I tried to sign up for a trial
subscription on the ad you ran in Booksource Monthly which I subscribe to.
I just received another email from you. Congratulations on passing the one
thousand mark for subscribers.
Bottom Line: whoever figures out how to set up, what I think you're trying
to set up, will not only make a financial fortune but will do for the book
world what the New York stock exchange did for the capital markets almost
two hundred years ago and what the Nasdaq further did in the last decade.
Namely, to provide a universal and open and widely used medium for both auction and negotiated exchange of goods.
Up until now the bookworld continues in it's quirky, semi-subteranean world of operating in the secretive, ill-informed murky shadows of a third world bazar of haphazardly ferreting out buyers, sellers and information in the most obfuscated methods imaginable.
You're on the right track but you still have a helluva lotta work to do and there are twenty other people all trying to do the same thing.
As as a buyer and collector of books all I can say is that abebooks has the format but I think they're going to drop the ball. They
remind me of Commodore Computers twenty years ago or maybe Amiga. Same with E-Bay. Both had the beginnings of a magnificent platform but not able, for whatever reasons of corporate lack of foresight, to see the
Are you the Steve Jobs of books? I certainly hope so. I hope, and know, that out there one of you is going to figure it out.
As I see your problem now, you have the vision but you're getting bogged
down pretty quick now in HOW you're putting it into effect. And please, though it's wonderful you now have a thousand subscribers, don't delude
yourself, as abebooks and e-bay have, into thinking that because you're finally making some money and creating a niche that you've answered to and found out the real solution to the big picture and are genuinely filling
Stay with it, keep soliciting ideas, keep revising the plan and tweeking it. I think, while aesthetically pleasing to look at, your web-site is missing a lot of 'meat' that's needed to fuel this puppy of an idea that your nurturing.
Well, I care about books and so took the time because you seem to really on some level be able to grasp what's needed in this book market so hope you found my comments if not helpful then at least interesting.
If I may be of further help, please let me know... all the best to you in
your endeavors, I hope you create what we all need.......and I hope this
e-mail makes it to you.
e-mail at: email@example.com
hhurt December 03, 2002
Date: Sun, 1 Dec 2002 09:56:40 -0800
Dear Ms. Tallmer--
Thank you for the article on e-Bay. Let me add an experience that I've
had that surely is not unique. On three occasions that I have documented,
I have received what appeared to be good-faith queries from individuals
asking me to provide scans of high-end books. I have done so. Then
normal back-and-forth discussions have ensued about possible discounts,
questions about the books' condition, shipping, etc. In the cases noted,
I have then seen the scans of my items (absolutely identified by small
mars on the books in the scans) appear for sale on e-Bay at starting
prices far above my asking price. Clearly, the e-Bay seller was offering
my books and then, if he had a successful buyer, he would then consummate
the purchase from me. (The e-Bay seller's name in each case was seemingly
unrelated to the person I thought I was dealing with.) At first, this
angered me as simply wrong. In each case, I ceased negotiations with the
fake buyer. My complaints to e-Bay were received indifferently. I did
begin to watch the patterns of what appeared to be similar sales (always
very high-end books) and realized that the practice was certainly not
In any case, as a bookseller I find e-Bay a good place to buy certain
books, but I've never tried to sell anything--except through these
operators I've just described.
Thanks again for your article.
Shadetree Rare Books
Al November 15, 2002
Please sign me up for a year. The temporary trail period has already produced Lewis and Clark books at upcoming auctions that I would have not found otherwise.